I have read part-way through the discussion on post-4.1, and a few things are emerging. Firstly, regarding tuuxx -- I do not want to target anyone, but ttuuxx has repeatedly posted comments that are incredibly superficial. For example:
"The 3 series just worked for myself better than any 4 series, I dislike the new pmount and shoving the floppy as default on my pc, which I haven't used the floppy since I made this pc around 12 months back, an extra click about 50 times a day, or the crappy clipboard downgrade on the 4.0 series that drives package producers like myself nuts. Really to tell you the the truth the only good thing on series 4 over 3 is is the default jwm theme. But I instally replace that anyways with Icewm."
Firstly, the Pmount in 4.1 can readily be configured without tabs, just hit the 'preferences' button. Secondly, the clipboard sync program used in earlier puppies was removed for good reason, but it is a PET package and can easily be installed -- without it, the clipboard works as per all other Linuxes/Unixes and just needs to be understood. If there is a majory wish, then it could be put back as default in 4.2.
All of the above has been explained to ttuuxx before, but he remains stuck with the same mantra. The assessment based on these comments that Puppy3 is better, is so incredibly superficial.
Then there is the issue that Puppy 2 or 3 works on some hardware whereas 4 doesn't. Yeah, well, it works both ways. This is basically a kernel version issue, not a Puppy version issue. There are so many posts that Puppy 4.x works properly for the first time, compared with versions prior to 4.x. Many recent posts about how fast 4.1 is also. 4.1 also has by far the best hardware detection.
Then there is the much-praised Slackware compatibility of 3.x. Well, someone can rebuild 4.1 with the latest Slackware packages if they want. It is a straightforward process, just very time consuming. 3.x is based on Slackware 12 packages, so is getting a bit long in the tooth. If someone wants to rebuild Unleashed 4.1 with the latest Slackware packages, then call it 5.0, why not? Go for it.
ttuuxx has asked can he coordinate the next Puppy3? Why not? I'm not stopping you, go for it.
There is also the comment from ttuuxx that I am maintaining control over everything, while at the same time retiring:
"Last I read Barry wants to keep just about everything puppy related in his name other than releasing newer versions"
Huh? I want to keep the "Puppy Linux" name, so what? To whom should I give it? The domain names puppylinux.org and puppylinux.com are registered by me, which means that I do have some veto power. Again, so what? Isn't this a valid safeguard?
So ttuuxx, I've had a go at you. Take it on the chin. You have also posted heaps of great stuff, and great packages. It's just that I am being bombarded with people asking me to make some kind of comments about what seems to be a lot of dissension on the forum ...well, I am now responding, and stepping on one or two toes in the process. Ttuuxx, it may turn out that you are the best guy to coordinate 4.2.
I have only read partway through the links, and so far I'm not impressed. Some people are asking for guidance, but what is to stop a small group getting together and work on 4.2? Nothing. Lobster is trying to coordinate something, but I am seeing a lot of arguing only from the contributors.
Meanwhile, the developers are continuing to work quietly. Regarding who should coordinate, by that I mean be in charge of using Unleashed to actually build it, and work on the core scripts, there are very few people to choose from. Other people can certainly play managerial and testing roles, but to actually build future Puppies...
Personally I think Dougal is the best choice, but he is working on 2.x. Probably Dougal would not want to take on such a heavy duty anyway. Who else is there that understands what is going on under-the-hood? Kirk? Rerwin is pretty good at coding and is learning about Puppy's boot scripts. MU also, but he has Muppy. Nathan also, but he has Grafpup, and also seems to have gone again. There are some other guys, like tempestuous, zigbert and HairyWill who have the technical ability, but again they would have to get up to speed with the boot scripts etc.
A side comment: many of the guys are "nice guys", approachable, friendly, helpful. Zigbert for example. One reason I favour Dougal is because he has a certain toughness and is less likely to bow to everyone's wishes. That's just my personal assessment.
There is some infrastructure in place for building Puppy, at Sourceforge, and I would like to thank cb88 for that. The thread started by cb88 had some good practical discussion.
4.2 is not going to be revolutionary, just refinements of 4.1. Fix some rough edges, update some packages, new themes. This can be done, just like 2.15CE was done. It just needs someone competent to step forward and do it. For 2.15CE, WhoDo offered to do it and we accepted, and he did a very good job. WhoDo, are you interested in a new project?....
I think the way forward needs to be along the lines of a Community Edition, like 2.15CE, which will get a group working together and build confidence, and will also help to clarify what should happen after 4.2. Other inftrastructure things like subversion control hosting, T2-rebuild or move to Slackware compatibility, and any formal foundation are not so urgent (and can continue to be developed/planned in the background). Also, the coordinator for 4.2 does not need to be a programmer, but should have good technical ability and be competent with using Unleashed -- my preference for someone who is a programmer and understands all of puppy's internals (like Dougal) and who also can take on a managerial role is the ideal though, for the longer term.
Comments:Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 12:17 by cthisbear
BK...you hit the nail on the head with all
" Lobster is trying to coordinate something,
but I am seeing a lot of arguing only
from the contributors. "
Lobster has been with us a long time,
has a bit of wit.....but not stupid..
has released some early Puplets and
should be treated a little more highly.
" A side comment: many of the guys are "nice guys", approachable, friendly, helpful. Zigbert for example. One reason I favour Dougal is because he has a certain toughness and is less likely to bow to everyone's wishes.
That's just my personal assessment. "
You're a hard bloke for a benevolent dictator...
but we likes ya.
Another great release....thanks again Barry.
Even got my 2 gig Stax USB working,
but using the MBR Bin?
in the universal installer.
Posting from Stax USB now.
Look after yourself...................Chris.
Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 13:02 by MU
I also think, that Lob should play an active role.
He is here since a very long time, and working on many projects.
Own pupplets, a lot of documentation.
And he has this great humour, that matches Puppy so well.
ttuuxx has a more profound knowledge in tehnical details.
He was a bit "hot head" in the beginning, but now reacts much cooler in situations, when he gets in strong confrontation.
I think those two would make a good team in organizing a project.
And Raffy would be a great third person. He has his very friendly behaviour that you just can have, if you live in the pacific ocean :-)
And he has experience in managing projects even in "real live", and also a long experience with Puppy.
Concerning my own role, I have added a statement in the thread "Establishing a formal community http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=240122#240122"
Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 13:48 by lobster
Unipup on Puppylinux.org
My only involvement with Dougal was sending him some interview questions. His response?
"What's the point?"
Hope he is willing to take on 4.2 . . .
Some of the previous blog post is here and awaits further updates . . .
with ideas on release numbers and some detailed proposals from Sigmund . . .
Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 14:28 by Raffy
Ttuuxxx and the team
Quote Barry: "Ttuuxx, it may turn out that you are the best guy to coordinate 4.2."
Yes, indeed, as he has boundless energy, although he has announced earlier that he wants to lead the development of 3.x.
Big_bass is another person whom we can ask to be the lead developer for 4.2. As far as I know, big_bass and ttuuxxx have worked together earlier (in puplet creation using unleashed), although the honeymoon seems to be over :P Amigo is working with big_bass presently, and of course I can join the team (whatever team gets formed, that is).
Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 15:00 by Raffy
It took sometime to find this post by big_bass: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=238790#238790
This experiment seems to be along your discussion: "Then there is the much-praised Slackware compatibility of 3.x. Well, someone can rebuild 4.1 with the latest Slackware packages if they want. It is a straightforward process, just very time consuming. 3.x is based on Slackware 12 packages, so is getting a bit long in the tooth. If someone wants to rebuild Unleashed 4.1 with the latest Slackware packages, then call it 5.0, why not? Go for it."
Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 15:49 by WhoDo
Broad Shoulders but no giant...
"4.2 is not going to be revolutionary, just refinements of 4.1. Fix some rough edges, update some packages, new themes. This can be done, just like 2.15CE was done. It just needs someone competent to step forward and do it. For 2.15CE, WhoDo offered to do it and we accepted, and he did a very good job. WhoDo, are you interested in a new project?.... "
I am honestly flattered by your confidence, Barry. There were many mistakes I made in getting 2.15CE out there, and I'd hope I have learned from most of them.
I would be willing to coordinate the effort for 4.2, and build the alpha, beta and RC releases from the 4.1.1 Unleashed tree if necessary, but I wouldn't want to spend as much time on 4.2 in terms of package selection, compilation, bug-chasing, etc as I did for 2.15CE ... I can't promise that much.
If there were a group of people willing to contribute to the effort - kirk, rerwin, Dougal, rarsa, pakt, MU, NathanF, plinej, Pizzasgood, zigbert, tronkel, ttuuxxx, HairyWill, Lobster, tombh, gray, prit1, cb88 et al - then I'd certainly be happy to pull it all together as a cohesive whole and make the hard choices of what to include and what to leave out.
My sig says "Actions speak louder than words ..." and so I'd have to agree with you that the way forward for Puppy is just to start getting it done. If you really want me to take this on, Barry, all you have to do is say so. I'm sure the community will respect your choice. Besides, I want you to continue having fun with Puppy ... not spending your hard earned free time sorting out a succession plan and putting out fires.
Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 15:59 by MU
Warren, yes, I will help if I can :-)
I would not contribute like "this icon should be green", but if you need help in "how do I change this script" or such, just ask me :)
Btw. the "file" icon is not very sharp and should be replaced *aehem ;-)
Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 17:03 by BarryK
WhoDo and a team
People were asking me to make some decisions about who should manage 4.2 as things seemed to have deteriorated, so I have been forced to do so.
I hope ttuuxx is not too insulted ...I have a very unflattering way about me sometimes. It's fine to have opinions, but I was assessing ttuuxx in role of potential project manager, and in that capacity he would need to work at reining-in the loose comments. I think though he would be an exellent member of the team.
I think that Lobster's strength is on the publicity and promotion side, and he should have this position in the team.
That advantage of WhoDo as Coordinator and official Unleashed Builder, is that he has done it before and proven himself.
Kirk, rerwin, HairyWill, MU, rarsa, Dougal, tempestuous and others can contribute as usual, submitting improvements and fixes to WhoDo. Ttuuxx, I think, would be great in the role of compiling and testing updated packages.
Anyway, best to let this settle for a few days, before announcing a team. There may be other ideas, others wanting to contribute in some way. I may not get 4.1.1 out the door for a couple of weeks, so 4.2 can get rolling after that.
I just looked at the link raffy posted about what big_bass has done. Great! The team may decide that Slackware compatibility for 4.3 is the way to go, and it is certainly do-able. It looks like big_bass would want in on that one, as would MU.
Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 17:12 by BarryK
Raffy, you are like Lobster, always there, helping on the forum. Always contributing in a positive way and soothing ripples. You also have professional business skills and are into the education side, so I see your contribution as invaluable in these areas.
Posted on 15 Oct 2008, 19:58 by kirk
Thanks for the mention, but I really don't have the time to do it justice. I would recommend Dougal and/or tempestuous, those guys do a lot of nice work. Dougal can be a bit blunt, but that's not all bad and he writes very nice scripts. WhoDo did fine with 2.15ce as well. There's probably many good choices out there if they are willing and have the time.
A new leader may need to slow the development pace due to other things going on in their lives. I think everyone should keep that in mind.
As far as what packages we use, it doesn't really matter as long as they're newish. Puppy 4 is just as Slackware compatible as Puppy 3. Though it's missing a few (unneeded) dependencies.
Posted on 24 Oct 2008, 7:43 by cb88
i can post!